Emergency Episode: OpenAI Fires Sam Altman & The Ongoing Drama

OpenAI Drama Alert Update
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Kevin Pereira: [00:00:00] This has been the craziest 72 hours in the history of ai. We've got political maneuvering. We've got billion dollar back stabbings. We've got stock prices crashing and then pumping. We are on the precipice of a mass exodus, a full-blown mutiny, and it's not even lunchtime on Monday. 

Gavin Purcell: So we are gonna get into this, we're gonna dive into the whole thing. We're gonna catch you up, try to give you the kind of timeline of everything that's happened. Then tell you why it matters for you, the normal person. 

Gavin Purcell: But first, as always, if you're here and you're watching this video, please like and subscribe on YouTube.

Gavin Purcell: Or if you're listening on the podcast, please leave us a review every little bit that you do matters for our show. 

Gavin Purcell: And please leave a comment, uh, under this video and ask us any 

Gavin Purcell: questions 

Gavin Purcell: you want.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah. So this is a rapidly developing story. Gavin, it seems like the moment we hit record and start talking, we're already falling behind. So let's catch everybody up, starting with the events as they were un unfolding, unexpectedly on Friday. 

Gavin Purcell: I. On Friday, the press release [00:01:00] that shocked the world came out.

Gavin Purcell: Sam Altman, co-founder of OpenAI and CEO was out. And, uh, Mina Mirati, who is the Chief technical officer of OpenAI, was replacing him. Now, this was a surprise. No one really knew this was coming at all. In fact, just recently, Sam had done a lot of speaking on behalf of OpenAI. This was not something that was planned.

Gavin Purcell: And in the, in the press release, . OpenAI said that the explanation of this was because Sam was not forthcoming in his communications. We really didn't know what that means. Then end of shocker, we still really don't know what that means now. Uh, it very quickly came out that this was a massive surprise to lots of people.

Gavin Purcell: Sam was the one who obviously was surprised first, but Greg Brockman president and also a co-founder of OpenAI was pretty shocked by this. More importantly, actually, weirdly, Microsoft. Who had put in $10 billion 

Gavin Purcell: into this, 

Gavin Purcell: uh, company 

Kevin Pereira: how much heads up did Microsoft get?

Kevin Pereira: Gavin, you put

Kevin Pereira: 10 billion [00:02:00] into a company. You build your next 10 years of products based off the success of that company. And do you get a courtesy page? Do you get a phone call? Do you get a Discord

Kevin Pereira: message? 

Gavin Purcell: I told, if I told you they got a minute of of heads up, would that be, seem like that seem 

Gavin Purcell: like enough? 

Kevin Pereira: You mean like a hypothetical minute? You mean like they got like

Gavin Purcell: I mean, I mean they actually got one minute. According to reporting, Microsoft got one minute of heads up, which clearly means nobody was thinking very deeply about this ahead of time. Just to be aware of what's going on here. The OpenAI board is very weird. OpenAI as a company is very weird.

Gavin Purcell: It was started as a non-profit, and we have to remember that this is different than almost every other startup in Silicon Valley. Almost every other startup in the world, most startups are created as a for-profit company, and they were trying to push forward to kind of do the best for the company, for their shareholders, all that stuff.

Gavin Purcell: OpenAI was created as a nonprofit, and you also have to remember . Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, Elon Musk 

Gavin Purcell: were some of the founders of [00:03:00] 

Kevin Pereira: the first like $40 million into the company. 

Gavin Purcell: was Elon Musk. Yeah. And, and the original idea with OpenAI was to develop AGI, which we've talked about in the show a bunch. Uh, artificial general intelligence.

Gavin Purcell: This And as of the firing, there were only six people on this board, two of which were Greg and Sam. So that means that four people decided about firing Sam.

Gavin Purcell: One of which that is gonna become a very key figure in this story, Kevin. . IA Skeer, who is the Chief Science Officer at OpenAI, and many people believe is like one of the technical, like geniuses of what they've done. In fact, an interesting thing came out over the weekend.

Gavin Purcell: I dunno if you saw this clip, did you see that? uh,

Gavin Purcell: there was a clip from, 

Gavin Purcell: uh, 

Kevin Pereira: Elon on the Lex Friedman podcast.

Kevin Pereira: Yes. For those who don't know

Kevin Pereira: how pivotal Ilya is, . [00:04:00] Elon Musk sort of bragged about his ability to acquire Ilya and his talents early on when he was recruiting for OpenAI. And it was a big battle between Google and Elon slash OpenAI at the time. And Elon that, you know, Ilya was the guy that turned the tide.

Kevin Pereira: He was the guy that unlocked open AI's capabilities. And so now you have a situation that you just described, Gavin, where this board four members. That means Ilya had to turn his back on Sam and Greg and align with the three other board members And by the way, we're still only at like 11 o'clock on a Friday afternoon. We haven't even scratched the surface

Kevin Pereira: of the insanity. 

Gavin Purcell: So just to be very [00:05:00] clear, the three other board members that were on the board, including in addition to Ilya, were, uh, Tasha McCauley, who is a tech entrepreneur, tasha McCauley, who is a tech entrepreneur, uh, robotics person, and also weirdly, Joseph Gordon, Levitt's wife.

Gavin Purcell: There was Helen Toner, who is the, uh, director for the Georgetown of Security and Emerging Technology. And then Adam DeAngelo, who is the CEO of Quora. Uh, if you know Quora, it's the, I would like to call it the world's worst, uh, 

Gavin Purcell: question and 

Gavin Purcell: answer, Uh, 

Gavin Purcell: website 

Kevin Pereira: Uh, somewhere. Yahoo just stood up in the back of the room and threw a shoe. Yahoo. Answers

Gavin Purcell: you're right, 

Kevin Pereira: Still the worst.

Gavin Purcell: maybe the second worst. Anyway, so these are the three people that, in addition to Ilya, who really made this choice. Okay. So speculation around why this happened really went bonkers and there was a lot of great reporting happening in real time. Kara Swisher, who's a friend of mine from, uh, Recode and uh, New York Magazine, did a lot of work.

Gavin Purcell: The team at the information did a lot of work on this, but in the beginning, . People thought maybe this was like [00:06:00] some personal thing that Sam had done, something that he had done that like they needed to get him out fast. 'cause normally in this sort of scenario, when ACEO is fired without much warning, something 

Gavin Purcell: bad has happened. 

Kevin Pereira: There were

Kevin Pereira: so many rumors flying around. I was getting texts from friends that aren't in the space at all going, did Sam Altman do something unspeakable behind closed doors? There were personal allegations against Sam professionally. People were saying they achieved super intelligence overnight we don't know a.

Gavin Purcell: maybe. that was him

Gavin Purcell: learning. He's gonna get fired 

Gavin Purcell: ahead of 

Kevin Pereira: Yeah.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah. maybe. Oh, how ironic. If the board used GPT four to help them write the, uh,

Kevin Pereira: blog post that they were firing, Sam and Sam got a notice about it through his AI being like, Hey buddy, I'm

Kevin Pereira: just a large language model, but you might want to get a very large cardboard box. You might. You might want to be ready to clear that desk off. So the rumors were flying around like mad. We still don't actually know, but as you said, Gavin, the board said that he wasn't being forthcoming, that he wasn't telling [00:07:00] the truth,

Kevin Pereira: essentially. Consistently. And it's panned out that. that that in and of itself is a lie, but let's keep it on Friday, right?

Kevin Pereira: The blog post goes out.

Kevin Pereira: Sam is ousted. Greg leaves on the heels of that says,

Kevin Pereira: forget this, I'm outta here. Microsoft is confused. The rumors are that Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft is furious as he should be there. Went his $10 billion baby, and now we're at just after lunch.

Gavin Purcell: yes. Just after lunch. And so the speculation started, uh, uh, firing much crazier. And the thoughts are maybe Sam was pushing the business too far, that the board believed that this was a nonprofit and believed that they shouldn't have been doing things like the GPTs, which we've talked a lot about, or doing things to kind of get this in the hands of business and make it a business first and foremost.

Gavin Purcell: So Saturday, the craziest, weirdest thing happens. , what became very clear on Saturday was that every, almost every, I shouldn't say every, almost every person, . At OpenAI through their support [00:08:00] behind Sam, which is the one of the weirdest things, and again, it goes back to the strange way, OpenAI, is it creates and works.

Gavin Purcell: This CEO seems to have had almost universal love by his employees of the company. Many of which who he recruited to come to the company. So this is a company that has grown remarkably over the last, like, you know, especially last year, but over the last couple years. And there are, I think almost like 800 employees of the company.

Gavin Purcell: One of the strangest things I've ever seen happen on x slash Twitter, which was a, a, 

Gavin Purcell: how 

Gavin Purcell: would you 

Gavin Purcell: call this?

Gavin Purcell: A heart 

Gavin Purcell: chain, 

Kevin Pereira: It was just a, yeah, it was A heart train. It was A big love. It was a, they call 'em cuddle parties. I forget what they call 'em at Burning Man. I know

Kevin Pereira: that there's a special tent you go into

Gavin Purcell: This is like the FTX scenario. We don't want a bunch of people on beanbags that are all sleeping 

Gavin Purcell: with each other. I hope 

Kevin Pereira: No, but

Kevin Pereira: that was, it was an endless scroll of support coming out and they, it, it was so

Kevin Pereira: funny 'cause with a single emoji, there were even theories and rumors behind the color of the heart indicating a different level of support

Kevin Pereira: or [00:09:00] meaning. But I think that was mostly bss the

Gavin Purcell: did you see, did you see the ILYA rumor? 

Gavin Purcell: Did you see that one? 

Kevin Pereira: yes. 

Gavin Purcell: Sam, Sam tweeted a tweet that started with I Love You all, and everybody was saying, oh my God, he's sending a message to Ilya ILYA, which is just like, this is how 

Gavin Purcell: crazy it got over the 

Gavin Purcell: weekend. 

Kevin Pereira: I, I was there for it I was refreshing as frantically as possible, but you could see the endless scroll of hearts, each one indicating a different employee throwing their weight behind Sam Altman. Which wasn't a surprise, I think what was a surprise was that the interim, CEO Mina, she threw her weight behind Sam

Kevin Pereira: as well. So what was this board of four? Thinking.

Gavin Purcell: Yes, yes. This is, this is where we get to the strangest, weirdest part of this. And again, to call out Kara Swisher, who's been calling this a clown car 

Gavin Purcell: all weekend, and it really feels that way. So then Sam goes to the open, ai goes to the open AI offices, has a picture he takes of himself with a guest badge, and he says, this is the 

Gavin Purcell: last 

Gavin Purcell: time I ever do 

Gavin Purcell: [00:10:00] this. 

Kevin Pereira: first, first and last time holding a guest badge, which was

Kevin Pereira: at the time Gavin believed to mean, oh, he's finally, he's back. He's back. He's in the building. Clearly

Kevin Pereira: the cooler heads are gonna prevail. The board's gonna resign. He'll He'll retain his position as CEO further enshrined in God status.

Kevin Pereira: And it's amazing 'cause this is the last time he is gonna be a guest at Open ai. My, my, my how naive we were

Gavin Purcell: there is another turn of the screw. Because what we learn after the fact is that the board wasn't talking to Sam at all throughout all this process of all these people. Sacha Nadella supposedly was taking a front seat to try to help this happen again, to help Sam get back to the company.

Gavin Purcell: The board was not talking to him in meanwhile. The board was out looking for its own new CEO after Mina put the heart up because assuming that Mina's on Sam's side, the board has gotta say, well, we can't have her do this job. They then on Sunday night, . Turn [00:11:00] the screw again and they bring in a new interim.

Gavin Purcell: CEO. This guy's name is Emmett Shear. He was the CEO of Twitch before and has done quite a bit of conversation about AI and you know, isn't a full blown AI dor, but seems to be an 

Gavin Purcell: ai 

Gavin Purcell: um, 

Kevin Pereira: He is a decel, deceleration,

Kevin Pereira: right? So

Kevin Pereira: he wants to

Kevin Pereira: slow things down, take it easy, make sure that safety protocols are in place, and that these ais are aligned so that they don't paperclip us all. That they don't just take humanity and rearrange our molecules and goodnight Irene, but. 

Gavin Purcell: next . I mean, this is like, I couldn't believe when I saw this, uh uh, last night. Actually, I woke up this morning Kevin, 'cause I stayed up late last night trying to follow this. This morning.

Gavin Purcell: I wake up, 

Gavin Purcell: boom. There is a crazy announcement from 

Gavin Purcell: Satcha Nadella, Microsoft, CEO, that says. We are bringing Sam 

Gavin Purcell: and Greg into Microsoft. Sam Altman is going to be an employee, is now an [00:12:00] employee of Microsoft, Satya tweeted, we remain committed to our partnership with OpenAI and have confidence in the product roadmap and our ability to innovate and everything we announced at Microsoft Ignite, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Gavin Purcell: We look forward to getting to know Emmett Sheer and open AI's new leadership and working with them, and we're extremely excited to share the news that . Sam Altman and Greg Brockman together with colleagues, will be joining Microsoft to lead a new

Gavin Purcell: AI research team. 

Kevin Pereira: Satya clearly knew that the hearts and the minds of Team OpenAI were with Sam and Greg well, now everybody's saying what a

Kevin Pereira: brilliant acquisition for $0, ignoring the

Kevin Pereira: fact that, you know, Sam and Greg are gonna get paid handsomely, but. For $0. Satya and team Microsoft just bought OpenAI. . 'cause they got two of the key players. They're probably gonna get a large percentage of the workforce and They still have a strategic partnership with OpenAI to get all the information out of Emmett, the interim CEO that they need to make this new venture something massive.[00:13:00] 

Gavin Purcell: But wait Kevin, it's not done yet. It is not done yet. So there's an update I'm gonna give you from 

Gavin Purcell: ia, the original guy. Then we'll go back to Emmett. So IA last night, this is the guy who supposedly started this whole coup 'cause it kind of is a coup, clearly, like it's a version of a coup. IA tweeted. Uh, the following, I deeply regret my participation in the board's action.

Gavin Purcell: I never intended to harm OpenAI. I love everything we've built together, and I will do everything I can to reunite the company. 

Gavin Purcell: So this is the guy who started it. So my question is to you, what happened? Why, why ? What do you do? What, I mean, this is speculation, but like, 

Gavin Purcell: what do you think 

Gavin Purcell: happened? 

Kevin Pereira: So I, we try not to throw acronyms around on our show. Gavin, we try to demystify this technology. We try to break it down. I have to throw one your way. This is pure FAF fo and that is a very technical acronym. It's deep AGI, I can see you searching your own repository for that. Um, Ilya

Kevin Pereira: did something [00:14:00] that we call, uh, he fucked around and found out. 

Gavin Purcell: Oh 

Gavin Purcell: yeah, 

Kevin Pereira: It's FAFO,

Kevin Pereira: Gavin 

Gavin Purcell: Yes.

Kevin Pereira: and

Kevin Pereira: that's what I'm sure those three board members spun a tail, some sort of yarn. Look, we still don't know exactly what happened behind the scenes. Did they achieve AGI

Kevin Pereira: and they were worried that Sam was going to race to productize it. they feel like they were getting so far away from their core mission that they weren't ever gonna get it back? Was Sam Altman running around trying to raise billions of dollars to, create their own chip set to compete with Nvidia or create this wearable device with

Kevin Pereira: Johnny F where all these things

Kevin Pereira: creating so much noise that, Ilya SSR was panicked about the core mission and got brought along with these three and got swept up with everything.

Kevin Pereira: Who knows? But FAFO as evidenced by the tweet of, I deeply regret doing this. 72

Kevin Pereira: hours later, I mean, Aaron Sorkin has deleted his final draft file so many times he cannot His fingers are stubs.

Gavin Purcell: [00:15:00] he gonna do? 

Gavin Purcell: exactly? 

Kevin Pereira: Wait, what just happened? Okay.

Gavin Purcell: One last piece of news before we try to make, uh, contextualize all of what we just talked about, Emmett Shear, the man who has been appointed the, interim CEO last night at 1:00 AM put a long tweet out, uh, a Long Ex post out, and one of the things he said at the very end was PPS.

Gavin Purcell: Before I took the job, I checked on the reasoning behind the change. The board did not remove Sam over any specific disagreement on safety. The reasoning was completely different. I'm not crazy enough to take this job without broad support for commercializing our amazing, awesome models. 

Kevin Pereira: So we had mentioned Gavin, that there was the heart train on Saturday, all the support from the open AI employees, but it was, you know, it was just a bunch of tweets or zits, if you will, Then Monday morning. A letter comes out co-signed by several prominent members of OpenAI, Including

Gavin Purcell: ia, 

Kevin Pereira: Ilia Sesco,

Kevin Pereira: who was one of the four board members [00:16:00] who triggered this whole thing, and they basically said, this board has to resign or else we're all walking. And then the reports were trickling out from Bloomberg and here and there saying, oh, actually a hundred employees have signed 200 employees.

Kevin Pereira: And as of our recording right now, it looks like 700 of the 770 employees at OpenAI have all signed this letter. Basically saying if this board does not resign, we are out 

Gavin Purcell: let us now put this in context and, and really kind of explain to you the hope, the normal person who pays attention to us, you know, the US two people, why this kind of matters. Okay. So I think first and foremost, everybody out there has to realize that this is kind of an argument around the future of ai.

Gavin Purcell: . This is like kind of the power struggle that's going on about where the future of this, this technology goes.

Gavin Purcell: Now, nobody knows how big this is going to be when I say this big. I mean ai. There are people out there who will say that this is the most transformative [00:17:00] technology since fire. In fact, I think the head of Google said that. Um, so you have to think that's a pretty big deal. There are other people who believe that this is an incredible tool.

Gavin Purcell: But we do not have to worry very much about it in taking over for, for humans at at large. Now, the science fiction version of this obviously. Is an an ASI, an artificial super intelligence that believes that, that some people believe will bring apart, uh, will bring about an entirely different way of life on Earth.

Gavin Purcell: In, in the best case scenario, it brings about a life where people don't have to worry about basic income that they, food supply and energy supplies all go up. On the worst side of this obviously is the conversation that the Terminator, uh, scenario happens and that we all get used by this ASI and maybe perhaps humanity dies because of it.

Kevin Pereira: And you know, what's in it for such an Adela? Does he want to usher in that future utopia or stop the Skynet foot from smashing down on the human skull? Or maybe it's just share [00:18:00] price.

Gavin Purcell: he want, or 

Gavin Purcell: exactly. 

Kevin Pereira: it's just dominance in the next generation of compute

Kevin Pereira: and operating systems, because it's believed that the company that achieves. AGI first will have such a leg up because once the machine is, smart enough to improve itself, you cannot predict how quickly the next step is going to hit. And that next step could be the

Kevin Pereira: super intelligence. And once we have that, the laws of physics as we know it might be cracked and could be exploited, and we

Kevin Pereira: could have teleportation and levitation.

Kevin Pereira: We could have mind control, we could have cures for cancer, we could have dinner and dancing at Taco

Kevin Pereira: Bell or 

Gavin Purcell: or.

Gavin Purcell: or none of it. Right. And this is the funny thing, and this is one thing I find really interesting . I've heard multiple people now say about ai, if it can't create new physics, then what are we even doing here?

Gavin Purcell: That it is not an AGI. And what that means essentially is . Physics, uh, the work of physics, the sort, the mathematics of physics is sort of the work that has been the most taxing to like human [00:19:00] brains. It's like you put your smartest people on physics, you know, Albert Einstein, all the people in the, the history of the, like last a hundred years, they're working on major physics problems.

Gavin Purcell: And when it says. New physics. That means like if it can help us discover how the world works, which is basically what physics are, that is what we're gonna get a new, uh, a, a new age of humanity. And that's what these people are fighting for. And I think that the other side of this that's so fascinating is that then you throw this exactly what you just said, this business mix in the, in the whole thing where people have to listen to their, to their shareholders, or you have all these other people.

Gavin Purcell: And I think that's just an important thing for you out there to know the normal person. That as you may hear about this as a purely business story, what's underlying, this is actually like 

Gavin Purcell: a much bigger 

Gavin Purcell: conversation. 

Kevin Pereira: look, we ,I, I love the drama, , of it all. As someone who owns shares of Microsoft. Full disclosure, I love the outcome thus far. , , but we also might be rooting for the wrong team. We don't know [00:20:00] what happened, and it's

Kevin Pereira: easy to look at the

Kevin Pereira: board right now and say, boy, that was hasty. That wasn't well thought out. You know, you clearly, you miscalculated. It was amateur hour. We don't know what was going through their heads. Nobody knows just yet, and I'm sure we will shortly. Right, and we'll get a version of the truth soon and then we'll probably get the whole truth over a very long period of time.

Kevin Pereira: But maybe this is the chapter where they did try to step in front of something major, some monumental shift. We still

Kevin Pereira: don't know. So I will reserve some judgment for that. 

Gavin Purcell: This could be Skynet, right? Like that's, we don't know really. 'cause nobody's saying anything. I don't 

Gavin Purcell: think 

Gavin Purcell: it's Skynet, but like it 

Gavin Purcell: could 

Kevin Pereira: Oh, they, I just refreshed the timeline. There's a new board member at Open ai. It's Jonathan Connor. John Connor. 

Gavin Purcell: Okay. Oh, wow. John 

Gavin Purcell: Connor, is that Sarah 

Gavin Purcell: Connor's son. 

Kevin Pereira: Oh, fantastic. . 

Gavin Purcell: That is one last thing before we move on to like what this means for development going forward. People were talking about like Sam and Greg would've gotten a lot of money thrown at them if they wouldn't just start their own [00:21:00] company. I think this, the underlying reason why they might've gone to Microsoft instead of doing that is you could have overnight probably them get, which this seems insane to the normal person, but they could probably have $10 billion

Gavin Purcell: in or more in actual money that would be directly given to them to make this new company.

Gavin Purcell: What they cannot get right now, and this is the underlying weird thing that goes on in the world of AI, is compute. And when you say compute, Kevin, what you mean basically is access to graphics, cards that can crunch new models. And I think starting over from scratch from for Greg and, and, and Sam and the whole open a, in the whole Open AI team.

Gavin Purcell: Would've meant at least a six month start to the next model sort of platform. So we would've gotten this pause. Now with them going directly to Microsoft, essentially what they're gonna get is . Access to all of what OpenAI has 'cause that's part of the deal, but also essentially probably a lot more funding because Microsoft has gone all in on this in in a way that like they are [00:22:00] probably gonna have way more opportunities to spend money on AI at Microsoft than they would've at OpenAI.

Gavin Purcell: So for them it might be a win-win,

Kevin Pereira: I hope the holidays give everybody a chance to breathe and be thankful maybe

Kevin Pereira: that they're not at OpenAI or maybe that they're not a board member. I'm gonna be given thanks.

Gavin Purcell: be happy because OpenAI , will still be flourishing, and somehow the OpenAI brand has been brought inside Microsoft, or somehow it has risen from the dead. We really don't know. But thank you so much. Yeah. For, for coming here listening to this catch up. We are really fascinated by what's going on.

Gavin Purcell: We do wanna shout out a few people that are doing great work in this space. Kara Swisher, as I mentioned from Recode Ashley Vance at Bloomberg and the team there has been doing really good work. The whole team at the information has been kicking ass. If you don't know the information, it's a really incredible journalistic site that's been doing work in this space for a while.

Gavin Purcell: Obviously, Kevin Rus, who's been on our show at the New York Times, as well as Mike Isaac, and also shout out to Carly p Riley, a a friend of mine, a friend of our shows who has been covering this on her [00:23:00] YouTube channel. We will send a, we'll set a link up to her channel below us, 

Gavin Purcell: but she shouted us out on her video about this on Saturday, 

Gavin Purcell: and that was really nice of her

Gavin Purcell: as 

Kevin Pereira: that was super nice And speaking of giving thanks, we are not gonna have a normal podcast this week. This was sort of the break glass grab microphone. There is an AI emergency. This is this directive, but we've got a special Thanksgiving AI for humans coming up where you and I will chat briefly about what we're thankful for and okay.

Kevin Pereira: Great.

Gavin Purcell: We know You 

Gavin Purcell: all 

Gavin Purcell: wanna hear that, don't 

Gavin Purcell: you? 

Kevin Pereira: Yeah.

Kevin Pereira: I was in my head, I was like, I'm gonna edit that out of the tease. So here's, we got a very special AI for humans Thanksgiving. Where we will ask various large language models what they are thankful for. And in preparation from that, Gavin, I can tell you this, one of our favorites will no longer be so after Thursday. It's, I know there's a lot of

Kevin Pereira: shocking AI news,

Kevin Pereira: but I am dead serious. You're gonna be really disappointed in one of our favorite LLMs. [00:24:00] I don't wanna spoil 

Kevin Pereira: it. 

Gavin Purcell: Oh no. Okay. Well that's great. That's a good tease 'cause I don't know what that is. We'll see how it goes. All right, everybody, we will see you on.

Gavin Purcell: Wait, 

Kevin Pereira: Who knows? I mean,

Kevin Pereira: who knows Gavin? 

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. . who knows? We may see you later today for all we know. But yeah, thanks so much everybody for tuning in.