AIForHumans108 OpenAI Nations

Kevin Pereira: [00:00:00] OpenAI just set their sights on a brand new customer. Surprise, surprise. It's the entire world because OpenAI for countries is now a thing that we all need to take very seriously.

Gavin Purcell: And there's that one billionaire who heard from that other billionaire, wait, lemme, lemme make sure I get this right. It's going to take an incident where 50 to a hundred million people die before we take this seriously.

Well.

Well, let me just say I was minding my business, minding my business. Please maybe stop minding your business,

Kevin Pereira: Gavin. No, it's fine. Listen, OpenAI is now a public benefit corporation in it, and as soon as we figure out what that means, I'm sure we'll all feel a lot better. Hey, tell

Gavin Purcell: me how much

Kevin Pereira: is it gonna cost me to get into your Armageddon special?

No, you, you're not gonna need that. Plus, Google's got a new Gemini model that is so good at coding. That means you, yes, you can start building games and. Full applications, and I guess you can build that bunker if you really need

Gavin Purcell: it. Yeah. And there's a, a new update to Suno that gives you [00:01:00] amazing new tools to upgrade your AI music.

Okay, let's keep going here.

Kevin Pereira: No, that's actually, that's really good. You can make really great music, Gavin. And it's just in time because look at these robots. Learning how to dance.

Gavin Purcell: I'll pay anything to get underground right now.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah. Is there room for two? This is AI for humans.

Gavin Purcell: Alright. We have a whopper of a show. This is AI for humans. And Kevin, we are gonna start with some pretty big news around. Worldwide ai. That's right. AI is coming for us all. More so maybe than ever before. There's a couple big things that happen. We're gonna talk about open AI for countries in just a bit, but before we do that, there is a fascinating interview from a guy

Kevin Pereira: every, every time I, every time I hear open AI for countries, I see the cover of the Bright yellow book and the Target bookshelf.

It's like, you know, machine learning for dummies. Open AI for countries and there's public [00:02:00] stand

Gavin Purcell: just going, oh, it's probably not far off. But before we get to all that, we wanna show a quick clip of an interview from Paul Tudor Jones. Paul Tudor Jones is a billionaire. He is been around for a while. You can look him up.

He was on CNBC and he kind of let loose some things that he heard off the record at a conference for AI people. Let's play this clip.

AI See: You just said something to me, which makes me a little bit nervous, which is your focus less on that right this moment than you are about artificial intelligence. What?

Well, what? What were you, what do you

AI See: mean?

Well, lemme just say, I was minding my business, minding my business. I went tech hub. Wait,

Gavin Purcell: I was minding my business too. Kev. I've been minding my business forever,

Kevin Pereira: said, with the exact same cadence as the hedonism guy. The ripping and the tearing, the minding of the business all looked of, learned another business.

Let's keep going here,

and I just want to share with you what I learned there. Chatham House rules, so we can talk about the content. So it was a small one 40 notables, but real [00:03:00] notables, like household names that you would recognize the leaders in finance, politics, science, tech. Where were we? Uh, and they had a variety of panels.

I was,

Kevin Pereira: I was on the slip and slide the entire time. I missed everybody. Alright, let's keep going.

Here was on one, on capitalism and uh, there was a tech panel that had, uh, four. Of the leading modelers of the AI models that we're all using today. So it'd be persons one through five of each of those four models and.

The quick three takeaways from that are

Kevin Pereira: they're surrounded by the skulls and the crossbo and like what is, what is this meeting that he is talking about?

Wow. AI can be such a force for good, and we're gonna see it immediately in both health and education very quickly. Well, that's great. I feel

Kevin Pereira: like the clip is done, Gavin, that's fantastic.

Keep going, keep going, keep going. AI is gonna be a force for good with medicine.

And the one that, uh, [00:04:00] that disturb me the most is that AI clearly poses, uh, an imminent threat, security threat, imminent. Uh, in our lifetimes, uh, to humanity. Okay. And that, that was the one.

Gavin Purcell: So let's talk quickly about what this is first and foremost.

So, first of all, set the table. He's at a secret meeting. Where the, do you think he was?

Kevin Pereira: He was turning down appetizers while he's hearing all this, like someone's coming up and they're like. Cheddar Ada. Yeah.

Gavin Purcell: No, no, no. Ho

Kevin Pereira: hold on. What is this about imminent

Gavin Purcell: threat? So just people, people of the world need to realize there are the, there are secret meetings of the billionaires in the world who are getting information that we may not have.

So o obviously you're hearing a positive, the medium, the negative kind of take. But Kevin, the thing that was really crazy about this is what he said next in this interview, because I think it's important for people to at least hear the sorts of conversations that are going on in these places. When you see

AI See: imminent threat, what do you mean?

So I'll, I'll get to it. [00:05:00] So I. They had a panel of of

Kevin Pereira: no, don't get. He, if the threat is imminent and you're on Squawk Box or whatever the show you're on, get to it.

Again, four of the leading tech experts and kind of about halfway through, someone asked him on AI security, well, what are you doing on AI security?

And they said the, the competitive dynamic. It's so intense among the companies, uh, and then geopolitically between Russia and China, that there's no agency, no ability to stop and say, may, maybe we should think about what actually we're creating and building here. And so, uh, and the follow up question is, well, what are you doing about it?

And he said, well, I, I'm buying a. A hundred acres in the Midwest, I'm getting cattle and chickens, and I'm laying in provisions.

Gavin Purcell: I'm laying in provisions. So the, the one of the top people in ai, we don't know who this is, but you have to assume, yeah. Open ai, [00:06:00] Andro, meta, Google, all those people is literally buying a Armageddon spot, which is pretty crazy.

And again. You know, we talk about AI, all the, all the time in the show doing interesting stuff and create interesting things, and it will, and like you said, in the beginning of that, is gonna change things for the better. But these are what the top people in AR thinking right now, which is pretty bonkers.

Kevin Pereira: Look at, at the top of the show, we alluded to an incident where 10 to 50 million may perish in order to be like a wake up call. That is our canary in this artificial intelligence coal mine. Um, that specific quote was about someone wielding AI to build, uh, like a bio weapon if you will. Something that they could, you know, manufacture in their basement lab and then release and it spreads and spreads and spreads.

Could happen, certainly could happen, could happen without the use of ai. But AI might give that knowledge to more people with more, you know, nefarious, uh, intentions. Um, but in that case. A lot of people were, [00:07:00] were, were using this quote and were discussing it as if AI itself was the rogue actor. AI went, uh, went astray and decided to take out a bunch of human beings, but just like every other, let's say weapon throughout the history of mankind, no, it was a, it was a human wielding it to do something bad.

So, um, if that helps you sleep a little bit easier in your compound tonight while you're laying in your provisions, great.

Gavin Purcell: I do wanna say one thing, which is really important, which is this is just an escalation of the conversation that's been happening, and I, again, I can't say this more times than I've said on the podcast.

These conversations are now happening at the very, very top of the world government structure. If you believe it's, it's secret meetings with 40 people. Mm-hmm. Or if you believe it's governments. But Kevin, the other thing you said, AI might be a tool that that humans wield. What about when robots wield it?

Because there was also a very disturbing video that came out, uh, last week from a Chinese social network, [00:08:00] which again, is now kind of mysteriously disappear off the internet. So just from a sourcing standpoint, I could not track this back to an exact place on the internet. But it is a very good example of what could happen when robots get the wrong look at this stuff.

Kevin Pereira: If you're not getting the video of this, this is a, uh, uh, like A-C-C-T-V footage from inside of a, a warehouse where they're working on robotics and you've got, um, one of those unitary looking robots, bipedal humanoid, two arms, two legs, torso, small little webcam head. It's dangling from a hook and it looks like they're pushing some sort of update to it, and it did not like that up.

Date Gavin, someone touched the robit in a very sensitive place and it starts immediately flailing servos and arms are flying around and it is like gyrating on a hook, like a caught fish. Yeah. That wants off. And it's very angry at its masters. And I remember I was at the airport and I was playing this for April and going like, can you imagine there's gonna be billions of these things?

Yeah,

Kevin Pereira: exactly. And people's homes, [00:09:00] like literally like tucking their children in at night or taking care of their elderly parents and a firmware update's gonna hit it right in a sensitive spot and it's gonna say no, and it's gonna start karate chop in the diapers of the young and the old.

Gavin Purcell: I also do think when you look at a video like this, you can think like.

There's also ways that people could just screw up and update and it could cause a lot of problems. Yes. Right. And this is like one thing we just have to be aware of as we roll this out to everybody and everybody becomes part of this whole world when robotics go wide, it's definitely something

Kevin Pereira: g I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna vibe, code and update to my in-home assistant.

Yeah. That's gonna like help me make better juice in the morning and it's gonna squeeze my head into some device. Until, until the human fluid comes out. Hmm. Delicious smoothie. But the good news is that if there happens to be, let's say 10 to 50 million bodies lying around the world. Oh Jesus. God. Yeah.

'cause an update went awry and it could happen. Right? Non-zero chance. [00:10:00] Lay in your provisions. The good news is. The robot cleanup crew is arriving Gavin, not one, but two adorable videos of in-home robot assistance with arms and autonomy going about picking up your soiled laundry and another robot in the office place that has been deployed in a few test cases that's going around, picking up little sponges, dipping them in a cleaning solution, and cleaning some very disgusting toilets.

Gavin.

Gavin Purcell: See, it's fine. Everything's fine. The sweet, yeah. The robots will do the, they'll do the murdering and then they'll do the cleaning up of the murdering. They're both the murderer on Dexter and the cleanup people, crew that comes in after,

Kevin Pereira: wait, hold on. When you see these robots navigating about the home, I, I see them and I go, okay, we're.

Four, five years out from having this being like slim and efficient enough to probably have around something. But then you see the robot flailing on the hook. Yeah. Like how quick will you be to adopt something like this in your home?

Gavin Purcell: Probably

Kevin Pereira: as fast as

Gavin Purcell: everybody

Kevin Pereira: else. [00:11:00]

Gavin Purcell: As soon as they can full laundry, I'm probably gonna get it in my house.

That's probably the real answer to it.

Kevin Pereira: Okay. But there's a, there's an 8% chance that it folds you as well. Are you rolling those dice?

Gavin Purcell: You know, maybe I have to, we'll have to see. It depends on if I, I won't be the first person folded, but if there's been a couple people folded and people say, guess what?

It's learned it. It's not gonna fold any more people, then I buy it. Then you're in. I buy it. Okay. That's fair. Alright, we should talk about another huge thing that connects to all this idea, which is. OpenAI is, has released a blog post titled OpenAI for Countries. And what this really is, Kevin, is a document that lays out how AI would benefit a nation state.

And one of the most interesting things to me about this in, in talking about all this stuff we just discussed above, they say today we're interesting, OpenAI for countries, a new initiative within the Stargate Project. This is a moment that we need to act to support countries around the world that would prefer to build.

On Democratic AI rails and provide a clear alternative to authoritarian versions of [00:12:00] AI that would deploy it to consolidate power. So again, this is no longer just like, I'm gonna type in a funny thing and see what I get back. It's no longer like how, look, this is so complete. Yeah, it's not longer. How good is it as a Pacman puns, this is literally, we are starting to think about ais, how they might run a country, and that is the stage we're at.

Kevin Pereira: Gavin, I couldn't hear a single thing you just said over the sounds of that bald eagle screech and that monster truck revving that sick electric guitar solo happening. USA export All the democracy. So here's what they're going to do, Gavin. Alright, open AI and. With the helping of the US government, of course, they're going to go to countries that maybe don't have the funds to spin up their own Stargate, their multi-billion dollar Stargates.

Mm-hmm. And they're gonna say, Hey, interesting. We're gonna help you deploy, uh, safe. Reliable artificial intelligence in a data center within your country, we're gonna help you secure that data center, [00:13:00] which could be like a cybersecurity thing, or maybe even boots on ground. Right? Why not? Why not throw a couple soldiers there with some sort of rifles or some robot dogs, or even the bipedal ones that just karate chop randomly.

Sure. That would scare the hell outta me. Yeah, but they're gonna help you. Set up your infrastructure, they're gonna get you, your AI going. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be safe and secure, and you'll be able to provide it to all of the people of your country. We'll even help you raise funds for it if you wanna do it yourself.

Now, what could go wrong? Literally nothing. Gavin, I asked an AI and it said there's no, no downside this. This isn't, uh, some sort of digital Trojan horse. This isn't a way for the US to get further entrenched in communities and have strings attached and get boots on the ground. This isn't a way for them to set up like a global surveillance state where they have access to all of the data of all of the countries sifting through civilian and government.

There is nothing wrong with this, and I, I, I, good luck. Go ahead. Change my mind, Gavin.

Gavin Purcell: Well, what if China does it too, Kevin? Aren't we in that same place where we have to beat China to [00:14:00] doing it?

Kevin Pereira: I'm Robocop having a dream in this chair.

Gavin Purcell: This is not a lot of what we normally talk about in this show, but it is one of those things where sometimes you hear something, you read something and really does make you sit up and, and watch what's going on in the world. Maybe this is gonna screw our algorithm, but like. This is like world changing. I don't wanna say conspiracy theory stuff, but like this is very large.

Like this is what they talk about when, you know the world will change underneath your feet. Like that is right now that it's happening and it is important for people to be aware of it. It's so

Kevin Pereira: weird, Gavin. It's so weird that this thing that uh, you know, I think you and I genuinely love and are excited by.

Yeah, it is. It is weird to go listen. If you do not have this as an individual or as a nation state, if you don't have this, you're gonna be left in the digital dust. Yeah. But by the way, adopting this might mean. Goodbye to all of your privacy, all of your freedom, [00:15:00] all of your individual thought. Like, I mean, who knows?

Gavin Purcell: I mean, this is our, we have, we have gone completely existential in this episode, but it is one of those things when you, these sorts of things happening, you gotta sit up. The other thing that we really should cover, uh, quickly in this same vein is open AI going nonprofit. Now, this is a. Very wonky story.

In fact, maybe we'll put a little wonky graphic up here, wonk warning. Um, but the idea here basically is it's a follow up. Won warning, wonk warning. This is wonk warning. Uh, Wally. The wonky

Kevin Pereira: walrus

Gavin Purcell: is

Kevin Pereira: just gonna come across the screen. Won. Go won. Go won. Go watch out. This won. Now you made that.

Gavin Purcell: I have to make Wally the wonky walrus.

Basically, what's happened here? Here is OpenAI has decided to stay a nonprofit corporation. This was the big conversation that happened. A couple, like, you know, six months ago OpenAI was trying to become a for-profit conversation and they are specifically saying, we are a nonprofit corporation with a public benefit corporation designation.

Like Patagonia is this as well. Like you [00:16:00] can still make profits, but the idea is you're doing good for the world. Mm-hmm. Now, Kevin. This is something that many people have said. This is not what Sam Altman wanted, but it is kind of what Sam Altman got stuck with because of the Elon Musk lawsuit. And the one big thing here right now is that the nonprofit board, the thing that, first of all oust is Sam Altman.

Controls open AI now, right? Sam is in a much more powerful place now. He can put himself on that board. He can put other people on that board that he knows won't kick him out. But that is what is staying in place. And you know, argumentatively, there's a whole bunch of business crap that we're not gonna get into because like I.

What is the value of Microsoft's investment? And Microsoft is kind of unhappy and supposedly they're trying to renegotiate how many profits Microsoft gets, but overall this is landing in a place which going with OpenAI for countries feels like they're trying to say like, Hey, we're gonna be the good guys.

We're gonna do this in a way that's not based on corporate greed. Ultimately, I think it's probably a good thing for [00:17:00] people. I don't know if it's as good of a thing for opening eyes investors, but again, there's many more places you can get that analysis than here.

Kevin Pereira: Won.

Well, that's right Gavin. It's a wonky

Gavin Purcell: one. I

Kevin Pereira: do

Gavin Purcell: have one very specific conspiracy theory. I wanna try real, this is what, like, listen,

Kevin Pereira: I had a bunch to say, but I, this is how the sausage is made. I'm in our Google Doc and it says, Gavin's deep dark conspiracy theory. Here it is.

Gavin Purcell: In

Kevin Pereira: 30

Gavin Purcell: seconds. I'm wanna give it to you in 30 seconds.

Let, okay. My conspiracy theory is based on. Glaze gate was a much bigger deal than we know on our end, and I think this is the case because speaking to all the crap we just talked about. S Laze Gate, all of the people who came out and were really negative on Glaze Gate, were all talking about how the AI could influence people and how irresponsible it was for chat GPT and OpenAI to push this thing.

Kevin Pereira: If you missed last week's episode, by the way, slays Gate was OpenAI released an update chat. GPT was going full sycophant [00:18:00] mode, agreeing with people, telling them they might be gods, et cetera, et cetera, is real bad. They rolled it back.

Gavin Purcell: So there were two separate blog posts from opening AI about this particular thing.

Multiple tweets from Sam. My deep conspiracy theory is all those people who'd ousted Sam before in the background got super aggressive about glaze gate. Like, look, this is what this guy's doing. And again, this is all speculation. This is not nothing's proven here, but this is what this guy's doing and we cannot have him be in control of this thing because look at what he does.

So to me. That might have been what forced this nonprofit conversation to happen. Now that's, that's my conspiracy theory again. It is, it is very wonky, walrus about this whole thing, but it's,

Kevin Pereira: Imma put on my 10 foil hit.

Gavin Purcell: It's conspiracy wonky, you right. He sounds like the guy from, uh, Jurassic Park. The little DNA strand.

Kevin Pereira: Oh, that's right. Yeah. Hey, listen, and I hate to tell you, uh, what was it, Wally? The wonky walrus? Yes. W is [00:19:00] unfortunately in on the endangered species list. He's the, he's a one of one and he's gonna get deleted unless. Dear listener and viewer, you vote to save him with your actions. Actions. How would you do that?

How

Gavin Purcell: would you do that, Kevin?

Kevin Pereira: It's so easy, Gavin. It costs you $0 and like milliseconds. I love doing that. Like, and subscribe, like, and subscribe to the AI for Humans podcast. If you're on YouTube, click the subscribe button. If you're on a uh, audible platform, leave us a positive review, a five star review there.

That helps immensely. If you comment, it boosts our algo juice, and we love that. And last but certainly not least, you can go to AI for Humans Show and sign up for our newsletter, which is completely free. I lied. A bonus last, and not for least, you can also throw $5 in our Patreon tip jar. We appreciate that.

We use those funds to pay for all the things, all the licenses, and all the Wally, the wonky walrus graphics, we're sorry if it didn't turn out. Do now you have to make it. If

Gavin Purcell: it didn't turn out as good as I'd hope. All you Patreons, thank you for [00:20:00] giving us, it's just a few of us making these things, so I'm not making, I'm not making Pixar style graphics.

Please

Kevin Pereira: don't let 'em delete me,

Gavin Purcell: Wally. I don't know. Thanks everybody. We always appreciate it. All right, Kevin. I. The other really interesting AI story this week is ahead of Google's io, which happens in a couple weeks. That's Google's big event. And remember last year OpenAI dropped, uh, uh, advanced Voice right before io.

So we have to expect some big stuff coming. Google has updated Gemini Pro 2.5 experimental, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. And Kev, this update is designed to be specifically good at coding. Um, Demi had a tweet that he put out there of this video, which is really interesting of a drawn kind of app that he made.

Where colors would make music and it's just a drawing, you put it in. And then Gemini created the app. And I can tell you I've spent some time with this and I do think this is a step up now from a beginner vibe coding standpoint. There's a big thing here. I'm not sure if you're super advanced at this.

I'm not sure how much better it's gonna be, but [00:21:00] overall, I think this is pretty exciting. If if it, if it's working as it is for me right now.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah. So I mean, well you've played with. Models in the past, this one seemed to get you very excited and you said, oh. I get it now. I can make games, I can make apps, I can make experiences.

Were you mostly using the, the, like the, the code snippets tool on their site to launch things?

Gavin Purcell: So I've done a bunch of, tried to do vibe coding stuff and like there's only so deep I've gone, Kevin's gone much deeper and has spent a lot more time in cursor. I've done some of that. Most of my experience has been like, you know, using the coding tools and then the preview window, whether it's on anthropic or on other things, kind of playing with the thing in the preview window.

In this instance, you have a thing called Canvas, where it will, it will write the code out, and it will, it'll render it for you, it'll show you the thing. And every other experience I've had, uh, as a non-technical person oftentimes does break in weird ways. And, and yes, you can continually try to fix what the problem is.

You can continually try to kind of, you know, bug fix it yourself. And I'm not saying I'm [00:22:00] going in there fixing the code, I'm saying getting the AI to do it itself. This was the first time that like from start to finish in 15 minutes I made something that like was kind of magical. Right? And, and the thing I think about with this, I'll talk briefly about this little bear game I made, which is playable in gemini@gemini.google.com.

That's where the Gemini homepage is. I created this like bear jump game, right? And, and it, right away I asked it to, Hey, I wanna make a game where you hold down the space bar and the longer you hold the space bar down the, the further the bear jumps. And in one prompt it made that thing and it was right there.

It was right there in front of me. And then I started adding a couple features to it and I maybe added like four features. And really only one time throughout this whole experience did I run into a bug. And that one time I ran into a bug. I just said, Hey, this isn't showing up right. And it fixed it right away.

So I, I know that everybody who spends time with vibe coating is probably like, oh, Gavin, you're being ridiculous. This, this, so many other things have this. But that to me is like the magic. And when you think about like, putting this in the hands of like a kid [00:23:00] or putting in the hands of somebody who's never coded before, that is a big deal.

Kevin Pereira: Look, there's some really, really amazing examples. I know you've got more too, which we'll get to, but there was, um, one of the initial videos that they tweeted out had someone, uh, uploading basically a photo of a tree. Yeah. And saying, represent this. Algorithmically, like use math to represent this throughout, throughout its natural growth cycle.

Yeah. And the AI goes, okay, it's a tree, it's gonna start at nothing. It's gonna, you know, then it gave you a slider that you could dynamically adjust where it was in the growth cycle and. Math magically out pops a tree with all these branches. These things are usually in the oven for a minute. I don't know when they made the pivot to like, let's focus on coating, but for a second there, Gavin, everybody was talking about Claude.

Yeah, everybody was talking about the Sonet models, how good they were with coating. It was an amazing business for them. It exploded. These IDs, cursor and Windsurf, which we'll talk about a little bit later, made them billion dollar, multi-billion dollar companies overnight. So. Someone at Google rightfully stood up and said, Hey, we need [00:24:00] to optimize for this that Well, yeah, and I don't know when it happened, but clearly we're seeing this bear fruit now and the Minecraft benchmark is one that I love so much.

When you ask an AI to build something within Minecraft, and I mean the, the, if you're looking at the video version, you're seeing beautiful structures. Yeah. And things pop out in Minecraft where, where it feels like, oh. And intelligence made this.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. And Adi by the way, who I've DMed with by the dude know he's in high school, that kid, which is hilarious to me.

Like really he's, he's like a guy that just figured out a really interesting thing to do with ai. He makes the AI build Minecraft stuff, which makes sense. 'cause he is, he is younger. He probably grew up with Minecraft. But like, it's just a really interesting thing. And again. The transformative power of putting this into like a seven year old's hands.

Um, the bear game I made was so stupid and dumb and just fast, but like you, uh, start to understand the educated value of having an AI that can do this sort of intense background work and just bring stuff to life. It got me really excited about like, [00:25:00] the future of education. When you think about that and, and not just education, but like.

Building stuff, right? Like if a kid at seven learns how to create something. Now some people, our hardcore coders out there are like, well, he's not learning the, he's not learning how to code the thing. He's not learning this. And my argument would be is like, it's the same kind of thing as a calculator a little bit, right?

Like you want, if you wanna go into coding a hundred percent, the kid's gotta learn everything. But like. Get him excited about it to start with and then have him wonder why it behaves that way. Like that to me feels like the future of everything. I feel like.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah. I, I think, and by the way, like coding, as we know, it may look at the ultra, ultra high end when you're very close to the metal, there's probably gonna be an extreme need for domain expertise.

Absolutely. But maybe a lot of the language, yeah, a lot of the language is collapse. In on themselves become natural language. And it turns out it's less about knowing what like an array is or how to, you know, define a variable and it just becomes more of like, can you actually communicate your vision eloquently and [00:26:00] can you problem solve working in tandem with a coding partner, in this case, a machine.

That might be the new way.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. Honestly, I've been thinking a lot lately about like, what are the things that are really important? Important for the future, and one is curiosity, which I think is super important that every person, especially kids, have a huge curiosity thing, but mm-hmm. The other thing is that, which is interesting is like.

It's almost like works well with others, but instead of works well with others, like works well with ais like that. Feels like that is a, a significant skill that people are gonna need going forward. And third buckets of dehydrated

Kevin Pereira: gruels, we're gonna need, need to lay in our provision's. Grenades,

Gavin Purcell: you're gonna need robot spray anti robots.

Spray all that stuff. Spray. Uh, we should also, speaking of, of programming, Kevin. So yeah, there was a big open AI news thing where they bought Windsurf. So Windsurf is one of the more popular vibe coating platforms. Uh, they bought it for $3 billion, which a lot of people were surprised. It's like, why wouldn't you just buy it this yourself?

And at the same time, cursor, [00:27:00] the really most popular vibe coding platform has now raised another $900 million at a $9 billion valuation. Kevin, do you think these are smart moves? Do you think bringing Windsurf in-house will pay off for open ai?

Kevin Pereira: Yeah, I mean, look, they, Sam Altman has been out there saying that uh, agents are gonna be writing a majority of the code potentially as early as the end of this year.

Uh, so it would make sense that they're gonna push hard into owning their own version of that. Like use the open AI powered IDE, this work, work environment for making code. We'll ship our newest models there. Maybe you'll get it free with your $20 free with your $20 a month subscription. Yeah, right. You know, maybe you'll get, uh, unlimited access to the models at the $200 plus tier, because if they gave me an ultra fast all you can eat plan at 200 bucks, I would spend that in a heartbeat for the amount of time and energy that could say, and then you're

Gavin Purcell: locked in, which is interesting.

You're then, instead of Gemini 2.5 Pro, which I know you've been using for coding, then you get locked into chat GPT, which is also an interesting thing. [00:28:00]

Kevin Pereira: Totally. And it, and it let it know all of my code base. Mm-hmm. And let it know who I'm building the product for. If I've got PRDs, these requirement documents that are also being generated with the help of ai, if it can build all that in, that's the moat, right?

Locking me into your ecosystem. But what's odd is that, you know, so many are like, there's a an app called VS code. This is all a fork. Of VS. Code, right? So they're taking this, this, this, uh, software development environment, and they're building these agentic tools on top of it. I, I mean, look, maybe Windsurf is much farther along than I, than I realize, like, and I know they've got some cool features in there that deploy these agents to write things and manage the files and the context windows.

There's a lot that goes into it. But man, couldn't she have done this for like a Billy. Just like one bill yourself and rolled your own. That's optimized for the, but I look, whatever.

Gavin Purcell: You know, maybe not. I mean the one thing is they did raise $45 billion and like this does get them further ahead, but, but anyway, it's like one of those things where it's clear acquisitions are going to be made in this space.

I think [00:29:00] coding is like a huge early stage version of like what works with AI and we know it's gonna get better. Alright, Kev, we got some really fun AI video and audio tools we wanna get into first and foremost. Old friends of ours. Go back in the archives. You'll find us interviewing.

Kevin Pereira: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm just setting in the mood for this conversation, Gavin, and gone ahead.

I was

Gavin Purcell: kind of expecting that I really, you could see my eyes pop open. I was like, okay. Our old friend Mikey Schulman, SUNO Suno has released 4.5. Are we listening to a Suno song right now, Kevin? Is that what we're hearing? Oh. You wouldn't know it

Kevin Pereira: by the amazing audio fidelity that is 4.5. Gavin, I'm on the fanboy train.

Two. Two bitches. Let's go. Let

Gavin Purcell: me

Kevin Pereira: opt your fanboy

Gavin Purcell: train. I'll get on my own train. So Kevin, oh, I'm cooking up the tasty meat. Kevin is. Let's talk about what they updated your cat. So first and foremost, alright, let's bring the volume down a little. Let's bring it down.

Kevin Pereira: Listen, for the first time in a long time, Gavin on the jogging my happy little booty to the gym.

This morning [00:30:00] I closed Spotify. I do fired the same thing and started listening to tracks. And honestly like, uh, there's this, this alley from Suno who I'm assuming is an employee at Suno, uh, has a whole. Set of 4.5 songs. This is our new model, version 4.5. And the track take me home is this like Christian rap gospel kind of thing.

Wow. I didn't know you were into

Gavin Purcell: that. That's really interesting. That's your, that's your vibe, huh? Yeah, DC I listen a lot of you like dct, Andy Nio. I

Kevin Pereira: even Lecrae, like I know that Leray man, Lecrae I do. The guy who cruise the, I literally was, I tried to do that side of the cross and like got confused. I watched

Gavin Purcell: the video.

Kevin couldn't

Kevin Pereira: figure how to do the side of the cross.

Gavin Purcell: It's more of a circle situation. I looked like I was

Kevin Pereira: spraying some, uh, Rob some robot spray. Get outta here. Yeah, exactly. No, uh, it is a really, really amazing track. And when you look at the prompt for this track, it's like hook, distorted. Mm-hmm.

Echoing raw emulsion, falsetto, autotune loop. Then the lyrics. Verse defining the [00:31:00] sparse beat, the echoes in the background, like the prompt adherence that you get out of the track. Uh, it's really good. Yeah. I sent this to a, a buddy of mine who was just like, oh, I cannot believe this is ai because there's a bunch of updates in here.

Uh, I think one of the most notable ones though, when you listen to songs made with 4.5, the lyrics, I don't know what post-processing they're doing or it's way better. They trained another model for it, but the shimmer as they describe it, which is kind of the grainy. And like war Boly sort of vocals on a lot of these tracks, it's just gone and they sound good.

So

Gavin Purcell: I, um, you know, have a secret desire to be a a seventies country music artist. And, and as I always do when a new model comes out, I created a seventies country song I wrote the lyrics to. But to your point here, play a little bit of this. The audio vocal sounds so much better in this model. Listen up, y'all.

Darl is one of them type

Gavin Purcell: guys. Like you can almost hear the kind of microphone that's been recorded on, which is [00:32:00] fascinating to me. Right? Like that idea that like, okay, sure the music's fine, but it's the, it's the way the voice sounds. That feels so much better than the last version we had.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah.

Gavin Purcell: Above.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah. And then look, when you look at the, the, the patch notes, basically, uh, they say, uh, vocals now hit harder, more depth emotion and range intimate whispers to full on power hooks. Yeah. And I think like as AI written as that patch note, is it, it's there. Yeah. Um. The, they say more complex textured sound. I believe it.

I'm listening to some of these songs. They just, they sound like they've been properly mastered. Yes. Not just flatten outta the machine. Uh, there's some eq to it all and the prompt adherence is there. I also love that you can really genre flip. Like you could say you want your, your, your country and Brazilian funk.

Yeah. Or you want your EDM with your jazz and it will try to smash too. Different genres together.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah, and, and the one of the most fun things too, to your point about just listening to something, you go to the [00:33:00] trending tab and just flip through music. I have never had this experience yet with AI music where I could see myself, I.

Listening to it on my headphones where I'm working out and before it was always a thing of like, oh, this is cool. It's like I could see it as music or other stuff like that, but I'm never gonna listen to it. People are getting really good at it. They're getting really good at prompting it. Yes. But the models are getting so good that I can now really feel.

We are going to have one of these hit big soon. That's what I would feel.

Kevin Pereira: I, I mean, again, this morning I made the decision to close Spotify, go and listen to a track that's been in my head since last night on lube. It's that, that, that take me home track. And not only will we be listening to it, but it will auto generate a station based off that artist maybe of songs that have never been heard before.

And if you like it enough, you can remix it. You can create a persona. Based off of that voice and the performative style of it. And so now, you know, just like we have AI influencers popping up across all of, uh, your [00:34:00] favorite feat sites, Gavin, we're gonna have these suno artists popping up where their persona's been saved.

Yeah. And now you can generate entire albums. And then what does it look like to take that persona and mash it up with another persona and do collabs with AI artists?

Gavin Purcell: Musicians don't hate us. This is not about you hating us. So, you know, you're out there right now probably like swearing at this audio or or punching at the screen, maybe saying like, why, why, why?

I think there's a world where, again, if you lean into this, there's a really interesting space that's gonna open up. I do think it creatively, as we've talked about it before, there's a great flattening that's happening and opening the door to using as many of these tools as you can is good. So you'd never know what's gonna hit with an audience.

I really think this is going to be a big deal, and there will always be people out there who want music only from real people. I really think that's also true too.

Kevin Pereira: Sure. Yeah. I mean, we'll, we'll have late, like the parental advisory sticker. We're gonna have like a server farm to table graphic. Ooh, I like that.

If there's AI involved that Yeah. And then, [00:35:00] and then you know what, uh, flesh vessels only like only meat sex.

Gavin Purcell: We should also talk about a hey gen update. There's a new gen avatar. Four. Hey Jen, by the way, you know what that sounds like Dungeon crawler. Carl, if you're a fan of fantasy and weird, funny sci-fi, go check it out.

It's very good. Very well read on Audible. Sorry for interrupting, but hey Jen. No, I'm with you. They, they are amazing. They have updated their, uh, avatar. In a significant way, they can now do avatar AI avatars from multiple angles. You have much better lip sync overall, and they actually are getting much better at doing character action.

Kind of like what he does. I wouldn't say it's at that level yet, but Hagen is pouring a lot of resources into this particular problem. And you have spent time working with them a lot of time. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your experience with this new model and kind of what it's been.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah, I mean, look, V four is, is very impressive.

Um, the, the, the, the, the common gripes, especially when you use like a single photo to generate a character, the common gripes of like [00:36:00] the teeth bleeding into the lips or there being blurriness or whatever, on some images, it's just fully gone. Wow. It's very believable in terms of like head movement, mouth, eye expression.

They, they've really crushed it. The examples that I have seen, and I haven't gotten directly hands on, but the examples that I flipped through some best in class stuff, the ability to have it work with. Profile shots is also massive. If you're trying to do machine cinema or you're trying to do a more traditional, you know, uh, studio shoot with these avatars, not so much for the UGC stuff, but still you can get profile with it.

I haven't seen anything super compelling in terms of, uh, torso or body movement. Mm-hmm. Which gets weird if you look at a lot of like the UGC examples, it's a lot of like. Arms like this. Yeah, right. Like really close. Both holding onto the lens. Yeah. But then there's no real body movement. It's all just here, which might work fine in a quick reel or a short, but I, I do wanna see them push further there.

Um, they have an, they have an API, which may not sound like much to most of the audience, but for those that that use these things that develop with these things, if you're vibe coding with them, [00:37:00] that means you can. Write software that starts generating these things in bulk or bespoke, you know, greet your audience by name, make a new influencer remarking on the news or something instantaneously, like you can do stuff like that.

And they're kind of taking a shot across the 11 labs bow as well. Interesting. Because they've, they're really pushing voice mirroring. Have you seen these example? Yeah. This was so

Gavin Purcell: we should play that 'cause it's quite fascinating. Yeah. So just to be clear, for anybody who's not watching the video, this is a woman in the middle of the clip from the debate from a couple years ago.

And what's happening here is they are mirroring, mirroring the pattern of Joe Biden's kind of stumbling in this woman's voice and it's very good.

Every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the, uh, with the covid, excuse me, with, um, dealing with everything we had to do with, uh, look, if.[00:38:00]

Right. He did beat Medicare. He beat it to death, and he's destroying Medicare. All

Gavin Purcell: right. All right. Sorry for everybody for introducing that to your, to your day.

Kevin Pereira: I know, I know. That was, that was, that was cursed Gavin. Yeah. We shouldn't have played that, but, but it kept, you know, the performer, the AI performer, it kept the accent.

Yeah. You know, it matched the cadence and the tone. And this is if you're look going like, oh, this has existed. Yes, it's existed on other platforms, but now they've got their own version of it.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. I mean, listen, this is again what I just said earlier. I'm gonna start listening to AI music. Maybe more. I'm still not a hundred percent this.

I'm gonna love or watch AI crafted, uh, influencer content. Not that I do a lot of it. I mean, I watch TikTok, but who knows, right? This is the world that we're entering in. I mean, for God's sakes, if we talked about at the top of the show, if there's open AI for countries now. I would assume there's going to be a big virtual influencer that is also going to come along and kind of take the world by storm in some specific way.

I do will. I will say, just like with AI music, there will always be human, at least for a very long time. [00:39:00] Human ingenuity, human creativity, human curiosity behind the creation of those things. And the ones that get successful will be probably driven most by that, not by the copy paste. How can I get views, sort of thing.

Kevin Pereira: Right, right. Now, you know, some people are quick to point out Gavin, that with, with many of these tools, cost a couple bucks a month, sometimes hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars a month. And we always say, just give it a minute. Give it a couple months. There's going to be an open source, something that pops up that provides a solution, which you could run locally.

An LTX studio just open sourced a video model, um, uh, that is 30 times faster than most. It's a, it's called LTXV. It's a 13 billion parameter model. But what that means for you is that it's a sizable capable model. It renders stuff very fast. It runs on consumer hardware, and if you don't wanna run it. On your own device, you wanna do it in the cloud, you can do it for like a, the fraction of a cost.

You can do it [00:40:00] for a fraction of the cost of other things, and it has multi key frame conditioning. Does means. What does that Kevin, what, what is that? I dunno what that means. That means you can give it a start frame. I want, this is a still that I've generated or I've drawn, or a, a photo I've snapped. You can give it a mid frame.

This needs to happen in the middle of the scene and you can give it the ending frame. So if you wanna take a wiener dog and transform it into a robit. You can do that by saying, this is where it starts. Here's the middle, here's where it needs to end. And when you start bolting on camera controls mm-hmm.

Which this also has with this key frame ability, suddenly you can have really granular control over any AI scene you're trying to generate.

Gavin Purcell: And to your point earlier, you know, the API of this thing or, or building with this thing, because it's open source and because you can have direct access to it. It opens the door to build a tool specific to you, right?

Unlike say, cling or Runway, which are very much like now runway, I think, for people allows them to do a bunch of stuff on their [00:41:00] backend, and obviously all these companies have APIs as well too, but the fact that this is open source, you can run it just for the cost of compute is pretty magical because as we've said again.

These take a lot of slot machine polls, right? There is a lot of slot machine polls, and being open source means that you don't have to worry about credits. You don't have to worry about all this stuff. Now, it's not as good as the cutting edge stuff. I still, for right now, think that Cling 2.0 is the best model.

In fact, I'll show a video at the end of the show that kind of points that out, but this is very cool. The open source video world is coming faster and it's catching up, which is amazing.

Kevin Pereira: Um, also shout out to runway, by the way. They have a, an interesting video showing like a, a kit bashing technique, which is, um, using 3D models, UNT textured, so like just white grayish, nont textured.

So non-pain or detailed models, roughing them into a scene. So like taking a a, a scene of a city and putting a 3D model of a car on it, and then saying, okay. Turn this car into a realistic looking car, or they do like a [00:42:00] chase sequence where they've got a flaming police car flipping over another one.

They're just taking these basic UNT textured models and placing them around a scene and saying, start to generate that. It's not an entirely new idea. There's been like pre-vis where people will use this to. To, to rough together a scene. But what is new is the ability for an AI to just paint all the details, the lighting, the shadows, the, even the physics of it, moving down the street, the, the motion blur of the camera as the camera's revving.

It can just sort of do all of that with a real high fidelity. You don't need individual artists to make every layer of that happen.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah, I mean, all of this points to the theme of this show is. Things are moving fast and going quickly, make sure you're paying attention, right? So this is another thing.

Runway's been really interesting and I think they've done a lot of movement towards pushing these models forward. Um, again, follow Timmy, uh, we'll drop a link to Timmy in the show notes who is run one of the runway community managers who often drops lots of awesome stuff. I shouted him out in our newsletter this [00:43:00] week.

He does a really good job of showing what's possible within the runway tool. So definitely follow him. Not an ad. We just like Timmy, we're not a Timmy, we're not sponsored by Timmy himself. I wish we were Timmy, sponsor us. We'll give whatever promo code you want. You can give us 20 bucks and we'll then, we'll, we'll shout you out.

That's our Gavin. No, that's a chief. Gavin. No, it's chief sponsorship. Gavin. Come on. All right. Well guess what everybody, it's that time of the show where we go and look at what other people, including you may be doing with AI this week. It's ai. See what you did there.

AI See: So sometimes ya without a. Then suddenly you stop and shout

what you

Gavin Purcell: did there. Okay. Kevin, the UCSD robotics, uh, department is somebody we have talked about before. They are really interesting and this week they introduced. Ammo a MO. And this is a way to bring whole body movements to [00:44:00] robotics. Now, one of the things I always love about, like these videos from academic groups or, or individuals is that they don't like super polish the videos.

But what's cool about this, so what this is doing is it's allowing the entire body of the robot to move. So it's not just like, you know, moving on a swivel or just arms. This is the whole body moving together, which is hard still for robots. But my favorite thing is when you watch this video is like, it's almost like, it's like.

So nervous that it's shaking as it's doing this stuff. Like it's barely able to kind of control itself, but it's in a normal, natural environment. They're, they're showing the robot do this stuff, but it's like, I don't know if this, I'm okay to do this or not. But it made you laugh. This

Kevin Pereira: robot needs a robot assistant.

Yeah. That's the problem. Is it like,

Gavin Purcell: exactly.

Kevin Pereira: If, if, if someone you love is loading the dishwasher at this speed with this much shakiness, you would say like, oh, let me get you a robot assistant. Yeah. And now. This robot needs a robot. That's the way it is. It's, it's cute. It's fun to watch it do its thing and grip a pillow and whatever else.

I think that's fine. I, the problem is like, I have been, I dunno if you know this [00:45:00] Gavin, but I've been doing a lot of consulting work for these robotic companies. Oh, you have? Lately. I had no idea. I have been, see, they've been training on my motions. There's a, a Chinese robot in a factory right now because I do a lot This.

Gavin Purcell: That was you. That was you. See, now we, the whole world can blame you for that. We realize. Full disclosure.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah, I'm really good. If you need a, an erratic karate chopping motion for your robic, call me. My a IC. What you did there this week involves, uh, my love of old cap com fighting games. Man. I actually hated them.

I was terrible at them. But I always loved the continue screen where you see your favorite street fighter character with a bulging, uh, uh, forehead and blood streaking down their face. And they were always just so, like grotesquely battered. Well, someone ran them through the old AI digital machine and I, I, I don't know if a stuttering Craig official did this, or if they're just reposting the video, so shout out to whoever did it.

But they're literally running the Street Fighter two characters who are all beaten up in between like the, like on a continuous screen running them through. [00:46:00] AI and making them real and making them pout and cry and sniffle and you watch the blood streak down their face and it's just, I, to me it was just like so nostalgic and comforting and so bizarre to see them come to life

Gavin Purcell: like this.

Yeah. It's so cool. It's one of those things again where like this is the kind of thing that like just brings a little bit of joy to your life and you see, and there's a lot of people are like, that sucks. It's ai, but also ultimately like. Yeah. No one's gonna make a crap load of money off of this. Yeah. No one was doing this, do you know what I mean?

Like exactly. This is not like a major motion picture that is not gonna employ a bunch of people. This is just somebody having fun and it really, it made me smile, which. Thank you to whoever made this if it was stuttering. Craig Official. Thank you stuttering, Craig. Alright, um, Kev, I wanna talk about, uh, runway 48.

They, they came out with their finalists and there are 50 videos. You should go try to watch as many as you can. I think you get a vote for three if you are a runway, uh, if you have a runway account. This guy, um, I saw him before they decided who was gonna be in the, uh, who was gonna be in the actual thing.

But this is Wandering [00:47:00] worlds and it's from a guy named Uno particular. And he created a video that this is in a very specific style. It's very kind of weird, but in this instance it's about an alien kinda life form visiting Earth. Just a great example of a unique look, a unique voice, and a kind of a very fascinating AI video to watch.

I love this. I thought it was really smart. Again, go to watch all those runway videos. There's 50 of them. I got through maybe 25 just to kinda check 'em out. There's a lot of really interesting creative people that have done stuff there.

Kevin Pereira: There's some really, really good stuff. It's criminal that this thing has less than a thousand views right now.

Yeah. 'cause it is very well done and I'm even as up to date as we are on all the things Gavin going through. Yeah, the submissions for this film contest, you go like, oh, wow. They really have gotten, so first of all, the tools have gotten so good. Yeah. That you no longer need to cut around things. You've got shots that are longer than a second and a half.

You have characters that, uh, have great lip flap and, uh, like emotive faces, their body movements are on point. Like the, the [00:48:00] scenes look so much more believable. The styles are getting so unique and differentiated. Like I, I, again, as someone who. Who pays attention to the space. I was blown away by some of these submissions.

Me too. I should go

Gavin Purcell: watch them. Me too. Spend some time spend. This is a good weekend project. It's easy. Just go watch a bunch of videos but don't

Kevin Pereira: bother voting because there's a clear winner. There is, there's no one is going to beat our last video here, Gavin.

Gavin Purcell: No, this is from a guy named Captain Haha.

Which we, I, he's a big fan of his on, on X. He is a kind of, probably in our same age range 'cause we have similar kind of styles. He made a a video of a centar skipping rope. Clean 2.0 and this will talk a little bit about how Clean 2.0 really I still feel is kind of the gold standard for what, this is the Kevin, the thing that you do.

You know what I'm gonna point out in this, in this video? I

Kevin Pereira: know what you're gonna point out, Gavin, because it's the first thing that that caught my eye, but I just sat there silently with it. And you decided to engage on social with it.

Gavin Purcell: Listen, I, first of [00:49:00] all, the fact that it can figure out the physics of a centar skipping rope, and you kind of get the sense that it's going over both sets of feet, which is amazing.

Yes. But if you pause the video and you zoom in, why would you, why would you, why wouldn't you? Because it's like, you know, you're looking for technical things. You zoom in. I couldn't figure out what do you think is going on, Kevin, in the area that is, let's call it horse chest. The horse chest of the centar.

What's happening down there?

Kevin Pereira: I see, uh, a rippling horse pack, Gavin, that's all. I see. What? See you buddy.

Gavin Purcell: So if you follow the human body down at a particular spot, there is an unusual thing that might be going there normally, but yes, it is probably horse packs and is important. But again, just a very funny video.

Same sort of thing as, as before. I never would've paid money to go see, you know, centar jumping rope movie. Like, or, or maybe somebody would, but not me. Somebody would,

Kevin Pereira: I love, I love you're paying money. You're lining up to see it in imax. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Wow. Me centar give, give me [00:50:00] something about one night only.

Centar at the sphere. Watch skip and then just skip a rope.

Yeah.

Kevin Pereira: For three and a half hours. No, I just, I wanna point out for everybody that's again, watching or listening, who is like, I. I can't get enough of this and I need it two more times a week. Gavin, they can get more AI for humans twice a week by signing up for the free AI for Humans Newsletter over at AI for Humans.

Show head on over there. Toss us an email. We don't spam you unless you count twice a week. Digest about things like centar. Skipping rope as spam. Then we will spam you.

Gavin Purcell: Maybe the next one will just be all centar. Skipping rope. No, I'm just kidding. Everybody will unsubscribe. Alright, ke very quickly. Um. I spent some time, speaking of Cling 2.0 this week, uh, the MET Gala happened, uh, which if you're familiar, that's where all the celebrities come out and they get a bunch of stuff going on.

And I made a couple very funny videos. One was the Met Gala for Aliens, which was a very simple prompt in vo. I'll share it in the stern notes below, but super [00:51:00] great in Gemini, by the way, in the Gemini app. So this is, again, Google's doing stuff right in Gemini. It was a very simple prompt. It's pretty solid.

It's a, it's a alien woman walking down the thing. I also then in Cling made a video if you've been watching the rehearsal, which if you haven't you should be because it is such a great show. I made a video of a giant Sully Sullenberg next to Nathan Fielder walking along the, um, me gala card, but both just dumb fun things I wanted to try.

So, so both of those are there. We'll link to them in the show notes, but Kevin. The most important thing maybe that is happening right now is SOA and chat, PT four oh image. Maybe loosening the rules of what you can and can't use in image gen. Just yesterday I saw a couple people, 'cause again, we always talk about this, but on soa, go to the SOA homepage, you can see what other people are making.

It's a great place to kind of figure out what other people are doing. I saw a lot of Muppets, which the Muppets had not been part of a lot of stuff. They've been held back. Mm-hmm. I specifically saw an image of burden, [00:52:00] Ernie. Stoned out of their mind where Zombie Rolf and somebody else were looking in the window.

So there were stoned Muppets. I didn't make this perfect to be clear. Sesame Street. Perfect. I didn't make the Stone Muppets, but then zombies outside. I was like, well, that's weird. I wouldn't have expected that. So I went and said, Hey, let me make a game of Throne Muppets. And it made it. So I think what's interesting is we're gonna see is like a sliding scale based on what you can and can't do in 4.0.

And have they loosened it a little bit? It seems like it right now.

Kevin Pereira: Yeah, I mean, like, I think you're right. 'cause we were talking not too long ago about, oh, it looks like they're clamping down, starting to restrict and now it's back. Yeah. Um, the, the problem with that push and pull or that stop and start is that, you know, if it becomes unreliable, if a creative is in the middle of

Gavin Purcell: Yes,

Kevin Pereira: coming up with something and using it to generate whatever it is their, their heart desires, and then the next week it.

No longer does that, will they turn to a Chinese model or an open source model Running locally like that remains to be seen, but I, I cannot agree with you more on just, everybody should just take a minute and go to soa.com [00:53:00] and just see the types of random things that people are making. It's just, it's super inspiring and very bizarre.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah, it's so interesting to see like all the different like grand theft auto stuff. Oh my God, Kevin. There's a walrus mechanic. Holy cow. Look at this. I gotta share this with you. One second. This is like perfect for what our whole conversation today. This is just a good example of what the random stuff you find.

Thank you for watching everybody. We'll see you all next week.

Kevin Pereira: Won.